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Transgenders, Gays and Rights

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We have a riproaring discussion happening in the comments section over whether or not transgendered people should be included as part of the gay and lesbian movement. (Read here and here.)

It is a good and necessary discussion, I think, and one that should be happening, as the recent ENDA debacle proves. So far, our commenters have gone up to the line of name calling without crossing it - I hope it stays that way.

Both sides–that T’s belong and they do not–have very good arguments. Everyone is rational here, folks. Let’s try to listen a little and figure this out.

While the discussion continues, I’d like to add my perspective.

I was at the “Freedom on Our Own Terms” womens’ equality conference this weekend in New York. One of the things panelists discussed was the debate in 1977 over whether lesbians should be included in the fight for womens’ equality.

Women’s equality was a fragile and new thing at the time. Women had been fighting for civil equality for over 200 years (Remember Abigail Adam’s imploring her husband to “Remember the Ladies”?).

Lesbians, on the other hand, were such a new *political* group that no one knew how many there were (and lesbians themselves still talked about “sexual preference” as a “choice.”) Even if they could be counted back then, they would still have been (and are) a tiny minority compared to all women.

Lesbians wanted a lot of things that didn’t apply to all women - for example, the overturning of sodomy laws (and yes, of course they theoretically applied to heterosexuals, too, but we know the law wasn’t used against them. It was an anti-gay law).

But lesbians had been fighting right alongside straight women for a long time, and finally the “sexual preference” plank was included in the call to action they sent to Congress. Lesbians would never again be left behind in the womens’ movement. NOW now fights for equal marriage, among other lesbian rights.

OK.

I think the parallels here are obvious. Transgender folks are also a tiny minority in a larger (gay) community. They want things that don’t apply to all gays and lesbians - for example, the right to change the sex on official documents.

And they want some things all of us want, like equal marriage (very complicated for the transgendered and varying from state to state, even if they change their sex and it is “heterosexual” marriage) and the right not to be discriminated against.

I think transgendered people are wrong to dismiss everyone who wanted a T-negative ENDA to go forward as transphobes. They’re not necessarily transphobes. They just don’t think it makes sense to turn against political allies in Congress just because they aren’t where we would all like them to be. This is a fair - though conservative and maybe overly safe - position. Convince them otherwise.

The people who don’t want to include T’s alongside LGBs have another good point.

Transgendered people ARE a separate - though overlapping - community. Our needs and wants don’t always overlap.

And I’m not convinced that adding “gender” to ENDA helps gays and lesbians; I think it really is a provision that mostly helps transgenders (although the side benefits of laws are often surprising. For example, who would have predicted that adding ramps everywhere to comply with the ADA would also be great for new moms and dads with strollers?!)

But it is silly to kick people out of our movement because they are straight, as some transgenders are. Most PFLAG parents are straight, too, and no one is driving them out. We NEED straight allies.

That’s what this game is about, folks: allies. It’s the people with the most votes - not the most toys - who win at the end of the day. No one wins by making their community smaller.

Transgender people are our very close - and very, very active - allies. We should be grateful for them. If they need help, we help them, because they in turn have - and will continue to (I hope) help us.

Just like those prescient women in 1977 included lesbians - even though there was a lot of risk in doing so - we need to include transgenders. We need to include transgenders. Let me say it again: We need to include transgenders.

YES, it’s politically risky. But it’s the right thing to do. When you’re in a sinking boat, you don’t start pushing people out into the raging waters. Everyone paddles. Together.
Wow, this is a long post, and I’m impressed if you’re still with me.

Basically, I want to say this: I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t. I don’t know how to keep our Congressional allies while at the same time keeping our transgender allies. But we need to find a way to do it.

Transgender rights don’t threaten gay rights, just like gay rights don’t threaten straight rights. More rights are more. More equality is always better.

Instead of entrenching ourselves in sides, let’s please, please keep talking. We can only figure this out through discussion. And we can only discuss if we really listen and really hear.

Add your voice. Tells us what you think. But don’t take other people down and don’t shut other people up. Believe it or not, we’re all on the same side.

You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
Comments
  1. These comments on here display the exact problem I've been trying to present - we are the only minority group that takes delight in going after each other. GLBT, no matter which one you are, we are at the bottom of the social food chain. And that means there is nobody else for us to hurt except each other. The amount of hate, exclusion and shitty attitudes I see within the gay society sometimes makes me regret ever coming out. This is not what I envisioned when I felt so liberated about being honest in regards to who I was. I felt that, after moving around and getting to know people in the community, being part of a society that 'has no rules' isn't a good thing. We are still a very anonymous, never-call-you-again, dishonest people. No matter how much we've progressed in society, and how gay friendly some places have become, gays have not become more friendly with each other. In most large cities gay neighborhoods are so exclusive and overpriced that I think they've been created especially to keep the 'loser gays' out. I know of no other minority group who treats it's own people so badly.

    All this talk about human rights and full inclusion is bullcrap until gay people learn how to let that emotional 8th grader die, grow up, get up, do something for someone besides yourself, stop lying to other gay people the way you did to everyone else before you came out, start treating other gay people with resepect, stop ripping each other off, stop lying your way through relationships that you have no intention of ever following through on. Why are we in this mess? Because gay people do not trust each other. No trust equals no advancement which equals no sense of community or loyalty to where we live. And it also fosters an environment where relationships rarely last more than 18-36 months. Fix that first before expecting anyone from the outside to respect us, when we don't even know how to respect each other!
  2. The basic issue that needs to be recognized here is that whether you are LGB or T we are all part of the same gender-queer society. All of us within this community do not fit the stereotypes of what our gender is supposed to do (.ie get married to the opposite sex and push out babies). As some who has gone through a gender change I am also a lesbian. I have not ever been interested in men nor did I feel the need to change my gender so that I can be part of the "Straight" world. I know that some Trans people are straight after their surgery but to pigeon hole anyone is wrong and to not understand that all LGBT individuals are under attack in this country is to grossly underestimate where we can be if we "all" LGBTQA stay unified.

    Jennifer
  3. Some posters have brought up the fact that Trans and gay agendas are different in some respects and that Trans ought to be cut out of the LGBT community on this basis.

    Guess what? Lesbians have a different agenda than gay men. While the community is focused on AIDS and it's ravages, the community pays lip service at best to Lesbian medical issues, such as HPV, Pap Smears, Breast cancer--and the fact that they ravage the Lesbian community due to lack of care available or the lack of friendly care. Our jobs issues are different as well. As women, we are discriminated against as far as pay. I don't see gay men out there supporting our issues but we are expected to lobby for theirs. Do you really want to start defining who belongs by cohesion of issues? Not a smart move.
  4. 1. Ronnie claims that trans people are "hetero wannabes." Sadly for Ronnie this is blatantly false. Changing your body/appearance/etc. doesn't change who you are attracted to. A large number of the trans community identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, etc.

    2. Amy mentions Stonewall, which is a wonderful event in history to draw upon in this case.

    If you say that Stonewall was the first uprising of queer people against police discrimination and harassment you would be wrong. If you say that Stonewall was lead by gays and lesbians, you would again be wrong.

    The Compton Cafeteria Riot happened in 1966, three full years before Stonewall. If you don't know much about Compton, read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compton's_cafeteria_riot

    At Stonewall, the people on the front line of the riots were the gender benders- the butches, drag queens, trans people. Most of the patrons were able to escape being arrested since there was a directive that the only people arrested would be those without IDs, those dressed in the clothes of the opposite gender, and some or all of the employees of the bar.

    So who, pray tell, gave birth to the "gay rights movement" in this country?

    People can rewrite history as it pleases them, but trans people are not the "latecomers" to this movement for equality. They are not the group to be tacked on to the end of the alphabet soup when it is convenient. Trans people fought for their rights and for the rights of their gay and lesbian community members from the beginning.
  5. Kudos to Jenn for a reasonabl;e and well articulated perspective. Kudos to all those who took the time to actually THINK before posting a comment. Clearly that wasn't everyone who felt compelled to weigh in on this controversail topic.

    Here's a suggestion to those folks: try to learn the FACTS before you post an opinion.

    Did that sound harsh?

    GOOD!

    As stated by the experts at Lambda Legal, one of the biggest flaws in stripping the gender identity protection from HR 2015 is that it leaves not only trans-people, but also a HUGE segment of gay men and lesbians vunerable to employment discrimination.

    Men and women, regardless of their sexual orientation, have been and will continue to be discriminated against based on the arbitrary perception that they are not "masculine" or "feminine" enough.

    Obviously, this lack of protection will have the greatest impact on the trans-community, who typically have the highest visibility in the "gender variant" catagory. However, they are far from alone as targets of discrimination.

    Consider the following: when a bunch of kids in the schoolyard start calling "little Johnny" a "fag" and "gay", it's very rare that this name calling and bullying happened because "Johnny" was cuaght kissing another boy. It is almost always a result of the perception of his peers. Maybe he's more into music or books than tag football. Does that make him homosexual? I'm sure that some of the women reading this could relate similar experiences from their youth, although females have their own special methods of cruelty to "outsiders", don't they?

    Unfortunately, the ostracization of those who might appear "different" doesn't stop in the schoolyard. By the same token, it is also very rare that the type of xenophobic employment discrimination that can often result in depression, homelessness, and violence is also based on arbitrary perception, once again regardless of "sexual orientation".

    Another fact to consider: in the real world, how many rational people disclose the intimate details of their private lives outside the workplace?

    To put it another way, how the hell would a person's boss know "where the nose goes when the doors close" unless YOU made it a matter of public record? DUH!

    In the event that sexual activity happens within the confines of the workplace, all bets are off anyway, right? Besides, that's what sexual harrassment laws are for.

    The point is, the ONLY people who MIGHT be protected by this watered-down version of ENDA, assuming it gets past 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., are the "straight-acting" folks who really aren't at risk anyway. It's "open season" for rest of us "poor, tired masses" who huddle under that designer rainbow flag that a few smug, self-serving, fully employed (with benefits!) closet-cases seem to enjoy wrapping themselves in.

    It's time that we ALL put the UNITY back into community!

    >>>(all respect, no restraint) Cyndi
  6. For anyone who thinks the T should be a separate movement from GLB, are you willing to give up the rallying cry of remembering Stonewall? We all want protection from discrimination and as a whole have more in common than different. Why be so quick to throw that away for a short term gain? (And a very short-sighted one considering the bill will never pass, has us fighting amongst ourselves, and has the potential to set horrible legal precidents.)
  7. ooops, mistyped:

    jennifer.vanasco@MTVNmix.com
  8. Hi Mike,

    Tried to email you, but it was bounced back as undeliverable (I was trying a hotmail address).

    Since I'm editor of the blog, though, my biz email is public: you can get me at

    jennifer.vanasco@mtvmix.com
  9. Well, so much for enlightened dialogue or rational discussion as Jennifer had requested.

    Jennifer -- if you're still interested in pursuing my line of thought, then ask the blogmaster for my email (I give my permission) and we can see about really getting a conversation on the issues (and solutions) going.
  10. Ahhhhh....if at this point in time I had to "explain" the reason why we should'nt allow hetero wannabes(trannies)to tack their movement onto ours then methinks I'm not the stupid one here Ms. melissa. LOL. Yes, I'm sure that it's wonderful to crusade for everyone's civil rights but how about we take care of OUR own civil rights battle FIRST! One step at a time dear. 'Kay.
  11. Thank You Ronnie for your opening paragraph of your essay argument blog. The rest of your essay must not have pasted correctly. You know, the paragraphs that support the argument in the opening paragraph. I hope to see it in the future.

    P.S: Please don't tell me you are foolish enough to have actually written such a strongly opinionative opening paragraph without supporting arguments. I would not want the rest of the readers to think you are stupid.
  12. Hmmm....How about the Gay/Lesbian/"bi"sexual/Transgender/Save the shorthair hunting dog/anti mice in space/pro parking space development at the mall movement! Methinks Representative Frank has done a FANTASTIC job with ENDA!! Keep up the good work! It's HIGH time the GAY/LESBIAN ALLIANCE finally got its TRUE priorities "stright" so to speak. No pun intended. =)).
  13. First, it’s a mistake to think that this debate was ever about transsexuals and their relation to the movement. The debate was and is about the betrayal of our movement by the Democrats, a move gleefully supported by the Republicans.

    Second. Lambda Legal and most GLBT legal scholars hold firm to their opinion about the differences between the ENDA crafted by GLBT groups and the bogus version written by Democrats and Republicans. They say it’s toothless and has no weight in court because too many key provisions, including gender identity protections, were stripped away. They were replaced by amendments written by gaybashing Republicans and then the whole sorry mess was voted in by the same kind of bipartisan majorities that voted for DOMA and DADT, and for the same reasons.

    Third, there is no GLBT community. There are however, GLBT communities COMPELLED TO UNITE by our common struggle for equality and to survive. Since colonial times our society has cesspool of bigotry: a few of the groups whose lives have been shattered by bigotry include native Americans, Africans imported as slaves, women and GLBT folk, immigrant workers, the Irish in 19th century, Jews and Italians in the 20th century and Latinos in the 20th and 21st centuries, working people and working farmers, their unions and ‘reds’. And pardon me if I’ve omitted groups, there are just too many. That bigotry is just as destructive today as it ever was.

    Barney Frank is unapologetic about his willingness to sacrifice transsexuals in particular, but in realty everyone in the GLBT communities is endangered by him and the Democrats who betrayed us. That’s a sure sign that we have to break our dependence on the Democrats and the Republicans. If we want equality, if we want to survive we have to create an independent political voice and help build a ‘coalition of the betrayed’ including unions, African Americans, the antiwar movement, immigrants and Latinos, women, youth and the aged, environmentalists, and etc.

    The struggle for a real ENDA by the 366 groups of UnitedENDA is a good place for the GLBT movement to start.

    donal1944@msn.com
  14. Whether or not transgender people are part of the gay community or not became an irrelevant issue when Joe Solomese stood in front of a large audience at the Southern Comfort Conference and promised the people at that even that the organization he represented HRC would not pursue gay rights without transgender rights. The issue is irrelevant because just about every other gay organization has made the same promise.

    If the Democrats in Congress break their promise with the gay lobby, it would serve them right!
    That is what they get for wheeling and dealing civil rights rather than standing by a philosophy of civil rights being in inalienable. More importantly, for breaking a political promise!

    If gays want to debate whether or not transgender people belong in the gay community, that is fine. I as a transsexual do not feel I even belong to the transgender community, never mind the gay community. Transgender is a term for gender ambiguous people which I am not. Anyone who does not understand the difference between transsexual and transgender can click on the hyperlink below for answers:

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071108235143AAS6JOo&r=w&pa=FZptHWf.BGRX3OFMiDBSUA2bYp0aMjpbDsZexKor6iKq9zgKjw--&paid=answered

    However the gay lobby needed to keep its promises. Now larger political groups will feel rightly inclined to break their promises to the gay lobby. The general Democratic Party now has all the public justification for doing so. That is the price HRC and the gay community will have to pay for breaking their political promises.
  15. Jennifer, your call for respectful dialogue is terrific! (patrick should read it again and stop tossing around hot-mouthed and utterly counterproductive rhetoric.)

    I strongly oppose the view that transgender people and interests are completely separate from gay and lesbian interests. The interests may not be the same, but there is enough overlap and intertwined history that we all ought to be able to work together.

    That said, we cannot simply stick our heads in the ground and pretend that the same level of political support currently exists for enacting gender identity protections as exists for enacting sexual orientation protections. If we can achieve both simultaneously, that is terrific, and we've been able to do that in a number of states. But if we can't achieve it simultaneously, we should not withhold rights advances from GLB people who desperately need them too just so we can wait to enact gender identity protections at the same time. Asking that is asking too much.

    To pick up on Jennifer's analogy, the lesbians who joined the women's rights movement in the 1970s did not demand that all advances for straight women be put on hold until all sodomy laws were repealed for lesbians. An even better analogy is marriage law. Lesbian feminists did not demand that straight women continue to endure sexist legal rules in marriage until the day same-sex marriage could be enacted. Sometimes different issues are at different stages. Working together doesn't mean stop all advances for anyone whose issue has more public support.

    And it bears remembering, Jennifer, that some lesbians ultimately joined not with straight women but with gay men to achieve some of the goals that were on a different track than some strictly women's issues. A GLBT movement does not have to be all-encompassing and the exclusive site of organizing. Transgender people might find some additional allies on birth-certificate issues, for example, with groups focusing on racial and ethnic identity issues.

    But just as it was wrong for the women's movement to try to exclude lesbians entirely, it would be wrong for gays and lesbians to try to exclude transgender people entirely. But I've never interpreteted Barney Frank's bill as resting on a desire to exclude transgender people from the movement. That's a very ugly spin that people like patrick have tried to put on it - and have, to be blunt, slandered people like Pelosi and Frank in the process. This particular issue has been about the different places at which the two groups are in terms of public education and generating support for employment legislation. Sexual orientation and gender identity are different and even the language in the bills reflects that difference.

    GLBs must commit to continued vigorous support for transgender equality, but transgender advocates have to understand that the two issues are simply not reaching political "ripeness" at the same time and for GLBs hiding in closets or enduring miserable conditions in Mississippi, "justice delayed is justice denied" in some cases.
  16. I'm seriously alienated by the analogy to lesbians within the women's movement. All lesbians by definition are women - they (we) are a subset of women. This is NOT true of transpeople and gays - trans is NOT a subset of gay and lesbian. Rather, there is overlap between the categories - some transpeople are gay or lesbian. This does not mean that the movements should be united. Compare the overlap between race and sexual orientation - just because many of us gays and lesbians are also POC does NOT mean we need an umbrella movement for race and people of color.

    Feminists have a duty to fight for lesbian rights because we are ALL women, and so it follows that our issues are a subset of women's issues. This is not the same thing by a long shot.

    Patrick: as another person just down the road from the SF LGBT Center - I would be completely comfortable with what you suggest.
  17. Let's start the list with current FEDERAL law that is a problem (and for whom) and then move on to the rest:

    Real ID Act - gender identity

    DOMA - sexual orientation (tangential to gender identity unless assigned GI's because post-op T's don't get treated the same everywhere and some states will not recognize their marriages)

    DADT - sexual orientation

    Come on everyone, keep it coming...
  18. Thank you, Ariel.

    Mike - that's a REALLY interesting idea. What do others think about this? Is it possible that bringing this type of clarity would (at least partly) resolve the problem?
  19. Perhaps one of the ways for everyone to come together is to actually agree on a legislative agenda that is specific as well as pragmatic...

    Let's spell out what needs to be done to get full equality for everyone -- in boring detail -- and then set to work in making it happen.

    (But we need to be focused specifically on sexual orientation and gender identity and not get all wrapped up in the plight of indigenous peoples or global warming.)
  20. I wonder whether or not we have the right to even use the LGBT title.

    After ENDA and the idiocy that T exclusion has allowed supercilious LGBs to proudly exclaim, I'm not so sure we have the right to claim the inclusion.

    Should the community centers (like the one up the street from me in San Francisco) change their name because there has suddenly been a wave of bigoted indignation washing over the community?

    Are the LGBs that are comfortable with their superiority ready to scrub away all the remnants of this forced association? Is the LGBT title now a relic of a shameful past like the confederate flag?
  21. Having worked on these issues in the corporate world -- where the framework for change is much the same, even if the drivers aren't -- I don't like the conotation that term "incrementalism" has taken on in the larger discussion.

    Donna Rose stated in her column in the Advocate that "Rights for some gained at the expense of rights for others is not something to be celebrated."

    That unfortunate perspective is disingenuous -- as you cannot "sacrifice" what you do not already have.

    What I would like to see is a broader legislative discussion as to specific remedies to redress specific problems.

    For example, clarity on gender identity -- aka legal recognition of a person's gender (whether designated at birth or through later assignment) -- solves a myriad of problems by placing those issues in the already recognized context of sex or gender... and removes it from the discussion of ENDA inclusiveness or same-sex marriage recognition.
  22. Nicely put. I appreciate your humble approach to the complex realities here. Having worked as both activist and political organizer, I too understand the conundrum we find ourselves in. It's not easy to play the political game without questioning your own ethics, but there is a process in place on Capitol Hill, like it or not. Having said that, I completely agree that more rights mean more rights for everyone, we ARE all in this together -- hatred, bigotry -- well, they just shouldn't be encouraged or allowed to flourish...EVER. Full inclusion is the way to go and we need to work together to get the powers that be to see that and embrace it too. If we truly believe in civil and human rights, then we can't pick and choose who gets them and who doesn't.
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